Jamaica's Disabilities Act Is In Effect (Transcript)
This is the transcript for the Season 4, Episode 4 of the Checkmate Podcast. This interview was with Dr. Christine Hendricks, executive director of the Jamaica Council for Persons with Disabilities (JCPD)
Intro - (Dr. Hendricks) 0:03
The philosophy that undergirds the thinking of disability, then you will understand that persons with disabilities are left out of everything. And if it is that you are not educated or trained, then employment is very difficult- becomes very difficult for you. So some people, when they turn up, and it is recognized that they have a disability, they're either turned away, or if they engage them in the interview, the interview becomes about the disability, rather than what the job functions are. My business needs to have a service culture that will not see the person with a disability as a hindrance or an obstruction to other people coming into your business place.(Paige) 1:01
Welcome to another episode of Checkmate, a political podcast from Tenement Yaad Media. You can follow us on Twitter @tenementyaad, and you can visit our website at www.tenementyaadmedia.com I am the host for this episode and my name is Paige. In this episode, I will be speaking with Dr. Christine Hendrix, and we will be talking about the Disabilities Act of 2014 taking effect. The Disabilities Act was passed in the Jamaican parliament on October 10, 2014. The act seeks to make provisions to safeguard and enhance the welfare of persons with disabilities in Jamaica and prevent discrimination against them. The key areas of the Disabilities Act are the provision of disability certificate, the right to education and training the right to adequate health care and accessible facilities, the work of the new Jamaica Council for persons with disabilities and the disability tribunal, and several others. So today I'll be speaking with Dr. Christine Hendricks. Dr. Hendricks has a PhD in transformational leadership, cultural leadership from the back a Graduate University and she is the executive director of the Jamaica council for persons with disabilities. Thank you for joining me today. Dr. Hendricks.(Dr. Hendricks) 2:28
Thank you very much, Paige. Thanks for having me, and good afternoon to your audience. Your online audience.(Paige) 2:34
Yes. Good afternoon to everyone listening everywhere. Would you mind expounding on what the Jamaica Council for persons with disabilities is?(Dr. Hendricks) 2:47
Okay, so the Jamaica council for persons with disabilities is the organization that the Disabilities Act establishes as a body corporate, or as a statutory body with the powers to implement and ensure the implementation of the act, and also to ensure that persons with disabilities have their rights upheld. It was an organization before that was a department within the Ministry of Labor and Social Security, with responsibility to facilitate the educational, social and economic development of persons with disabilities. However, because that entity did not have the human and other resources to facilitate the Disabilities Act, the Act had to establish a body cooperate that would have some independence, in terms of its, you know, high- it's recruitment of its own human resources, spending its own finances received from. Of course, the main portion of it from the consolidated fund, give it the power to also invest funds and also to write its own projects and seek funding in other ways that other non government organizations can do. So although it has its independence, it still falls under the remit of the minister that has responsibility for disabilities. And in this instance, it is the Minister of Labor and Social Security. And so we report- the council reports to a Board of Management, who will then report to the Minister of Labor and Social Security. So the Jamaica council for persons with disabilities now has the authority to develop codes of practice that that will guide persons, the society generally and persons with disabilities too in terms of how inclusion should take place or how to avoid discrimination against persons with disabilities. So, the previous entity, the previous JCPD facilitated the development of three codes of practice. And as soon as the board and everyone else being recruited currently comes on board, then those codes will be reviewed and accepted and laid in the Houses of Parliament as an affirmation. And then they can be shared with the society as to what these guidelines are, that will guide persons- the society and persons with disabilities in terms of inclusion. So the three codes are: education and training, the code of practice for employment and the code of practice for health care and health facilities. The next code that is going to be crafted has to do with the right to- or the code for public passenger vehicles that will facilitate the right to public passenger vehicles for persons with disabilities. And of course, the JCPD will determine what other code it crafts going forward from there, and it also has a responsibility to review these codes of practice from time to time. So, the the JCPD also will have a complaints mechanism being established, the Act also establishes a disabilities rights tribunal. However, the complaints mechanism for that tribunal originates or will have its origin in the within the Jamaica council for persons with disabilities. So, when persons with disabilities feel that they have been discriminated against, they will come to the JCPD to make a complaint, they can do it verbally, but it has to be written down. So, they will come and come with their written complaint and the investigation process will kick in. So it will be- the matter will be investigated. And if it is that mediation can take place to resolve the matter, then the client- both the person with a disability and the other indivi- person who- or institution or whatever it is- a decision will be made if they can resolve the matter at mediation, and if not, then it is agreed that the matter can be sent to the tribunal. There will be a secretariat to the tribunal that will take that complaint and prepare it for the Tribunal hearing. And so, that is another aspect that gives the the JCPD that authority. The JCPD also has authority under the Act to enter any premises to see how the act is being complied with. So aside from somebody complaining the Council can by its own authority enter any premises except for a dwelling house and view the premises or look at their systems to see whether or not any discrimination is taking place or whether or not there are any matters as the Act outlines that they are not adhering to, and that can also be a matter for either mediation or the tribunal. In addition to that the- the JCPD will promote the Disabilities Act through varying public education programs, public sensitization, both for persons with disabilities and the general society just to ensure that the persons with disabilities know their rights and the responsibilities they have in regards to those rights. And the society will understand what it is that they need to do to enhance the rights or to ensure that the rights of persons with disabilities are upheld. So the council has- is a body that has quite a number of responsibilities going forward. And as the act is implemented in its full- fullness, we will see how that takes shapes. So currently, there is a transition process. You would have realized that less than a month ago, the act was made effective. And since there was a department, transitioning to a statutory body, there's a transition process that the Ministry of Labor and Social Security is facilitating for a period of a year, just to ensure that all the staff and are recruited and all the necessary things are in place for the JCPD to fully take its place in terms of the implementation of the Disabilities Act. And also give this society some time, you know, as it does, it's public awareness, giving the society some time to get things together.(Paige) 10:46
Thank you so much for that thorough explanation. I think that really helps in understanding how JCPD works, and will be working. I want to kind of talk a bit more about the Act. What was the process like getting this Act passed and fully implemented.(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 11:04
It was a very consultative process, I joined the process in 2003, when the- after the passage or the acceptance of the national policy for persons with disabilities in 2000. So in 2000, there was a policy that the government accepted. That policy was crafted in collaboration with the- with persons with disabilities, and, you know, government technocrats. And, you know, those who are policymakers and so on. And once that was accepted, after three years, or as time was progressing, it was recognized that this policy in and of itself would not have the power or the teeth to accomplish what it needed to accomplish. And so, the process of having a bill drafted was brought to the Parliament, it was accepted. And the process began. Very collaborative process, as I said, between persons with disabilities, policymakers, and the various government technocrats, the legal minds of the ministry at the time leading the process. The- a person with a disability was always the chairperson of that committee, that was drafting the Act. There was quite a lot of consultation across the island, with varying stakeholders that this act would impact. And so it took a number of years. And as the act was being drafted and revised and drafted and revised and drafted and revised. And, you know, the the research process went in and different areas were written in and taken out and all sorts of things were happening, you know, fine tuning the Act. In 2007, Jamaica, signed and ratified the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. And this convention is an International, a legally binding document that Jamaica was the first country in the world to sign in agreement, that it that persons with disabilities should have certain fundamental rights and freedoms that is not necessarily is not different from the human rights of the 1900s. But we recognize that persons with disabilities were largely left out although there was the Human Rights charter of the 1940s, persons with disabilities were still left behind. And so this convention was crafted by persons with disabilities alongside other, you know, technocrats and policymakers and so on across the world at the United Nations and Jamaica, while it was crafting its own bill or its own legislation, ratified this, which then meant that Jamaica had to have local legislation to facilitate the rights of persons with disabilities being upheld in its country. And so, the tenants of the convention were pulled and made part of the Disabilities Bill that it was at the time and you know, the consultation continued and fine tuned and when it was finally finished and ready in 2014. It was brought to the parliament in July and the process started and ended in October, with both Houses of Parliament agreeing and passing this wonderful legislation that we have today.(Paige) 15:10
Yeah, and I'm very happy to know that persons with disabilities were involved in the process. And it was a- it was a collaborative effort. So I want to talk about before the Act was passed, a recent UNESCO report found that only 10% of persons with disabilities are employed, which leads to persons with disabilities, more likely to live in poverty and experience higher rates of violence. And then with the COVID 19 pandemic, this further compounded the situation and deepening the challenges that persons with disabilities face. So can you speak on the treatment of persons with disabilities prior to the passing of this legislation, and how this would impact them now?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 15:54
So I had indicated earlier that, you know, persons with disabilities were largely left on the fringes of our society. And not only our society, but it is an international phenomenon, because stigma and discrimination of disabilities is a real- is something that is real for persons with disabilities. The unacceptance of persons with disabilities over the years is something that is steeped in the human psyche. And so it will take quite a bit of cultural transformation, social behavior change for persons to get to the point of accepting the differences of persons with disabilities, and accepting that as part of human diversity, and so to a large extent, persons with disabilities were left out of the education system. And you will recognize that even though you do have some institutions, that will tell you that they do not have certain things in place, and it is all because of the fact that persons with disabilities were not considered from the beginning. The structural facility nor the other aspects of education, you know, it didn't consider what it needs to facilitate the education of persons with disabilities, because, because of the stigma, it was always thought that these persons they cannot contribute to society. So they stay home, and they are taken care of, or they are left abandoned, and taken care of by the state through state, state homes, and other people will take care of them. Persons parents, sometimes who have children with disabilities would, as I indicated earlier, abandon them without the hospital on the street or wherever, you know, left up to the mercy of somebody or, you know, for the government to take care of, because they were it was felt that they were the property of the government. Of course, it is a disability is a phenomenon that- or in the earlier days, we had even the church not understanding how disability was dealt with in the Bible and misinterpreted and misconstrued and only thought about healing rather than accepting the person as as they were, and sought to you know, and seek to engage them and allow them to be part of you know, the society in that way you know, as a social entity. And so, everywhere you turn from parents their own attitudes which was crafted by how society you know, treated other persons with how they saw themselves, with the with the thought or the thinking that when you have a child with a disability or if you have a disability, it is punishment for something that whether you are your fore-parents, something they did wrong. And so all of those negative connotations has impacted how persons with disabilities are seen and how they are treated. However, as we roll into the 21st century, you know, and and moving forward we recognize since 1981, the International Year for persons with disabilities. That year, many persons with disabilities got the impetus through that designation of that year by the United Nations. Many organisations were birthed by persons with disabilities during that year, many persons with disabilities started advocating, recognising that they had a voice that people would have to listen to. And so the entire advocacy started from, you know, back then, and has continued to date. And so if you utilise or understand all of those, the philosophy that undergirds the thinking of disability, then you will understand that persons with disabilities are left out of everything. And if it is that you're not educated or trained, then employment is very difficult- becomes very difficult for you. And so they were, they are largely left out of the employments fair. Of course, there are persons, now businesses, private sector, government, who are- they are making efforts to employ persons with disabilities, but we still have a very, very far away to go. Because 90% of our population is large and extensive and expansive. And so it will take some time to engage the different persons with disabilities as they qualify themselves. Because, as you would imagine, if you're left out of education, and you have never been to school, it will take some doing, you know, to get you to the point of being qualified to compete with, you know, with other members of society who do not have a disability, and who would have already had an advantage of going to school and going to university and so on. And we also find that because of the stigma and discrimination that is so rife, even when persons with disabilities push and push forward, and get themselves qualified, and they're at university, or they graduate from university, and they have their degrees and they have their skills, they still have a challenge being- getting into the job market or into the employment space, because some people when they turn up, and it is recognized that they have a disability, they're either turned away, or if they engage in the- if they engage them in the interview, the interview becomes about the disability, rather than what the job functions are, and how the individual will manage and manoeuvre that space, and what are the resources that will be required to allow them to function. And so you- all have that, you know, helps to compound the situation of persons with disabilities to the place that they are to the place that we have to be in 2022, making an act effective. That speaks to simple things like education and training, employment, health care, and health facilities, housing and premises, transportation, and all these things, these things which should come naturally for any citizen of any country, we have to have a law to make sure that persons in today's society have the right to these things. It's a travesty of justice, I might say, but I'm grateful that today we have this legislation that will help to push on to promote the fact that people with disabilities are human beings with rights just as anybody else.(Paige) 23:32
Oh, yeah. And you spoke quickly, you made mention of educational institutions sometimes saying that they don't have the, you know, the proper facilities or whatever it may be to accommodate persons with disabilities. Can you talk about what responsibilities that act rests upon the public and private sector in order to accommodate persons with disabilities?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 23:53
Right, so the Act states that any educational or training institution, public or private cannot deny persons with disabilities entry to attend and participate in their educational development. And it- The Act also provides for two years for facilities to become accessible and more accessible for those that have have started the process two years and for buildings that are just going up, they must be accessible already. As at February 14, no one has any excuse that a building is not being made accessible, that is currently being being being built. And for those that will be- that started building after February 14, they too must conform to the building act, and so for those educational institutions that might have challenges. In within this these two years can apply to the minister or the Ministry of Education to assist them in facilitating the education of our children with disabilities. So they cannot say that they are not able to. (Paige) 25:17
Yeah, and this act not only transforms the lives of persons with disabilities, it also aims to transform us culturally, as Jamaicans-(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 25:24
Indeed-(Paige) 25:24
-in the way that we engage with persons abilities. Can you talk a bit more about that cultural transformation?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 25:32
Ah, the cultural transformation comes through a mindset change. And so this act is intent, you know, this act is one that speaks to a mind set shift that will allow the society to be better, allow persons to directly recognize skills, talents and abilities that they've never seen before, or they've never engaged before. It pushes for a transformation that will make all of us benefit. There is a concept that is under the Disabilities Act, and it is the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, that speaks to universal design. And Universal Design is aimed at creating products and services that are accessible to all without need to facilitate any particular group. Except that there are certain devices that persons with disabilities would also need to enhance, you know, their own participation, and empowerment, and- but largely Universal Design speaks to building- it's not only the environment in terms of the physical space, so that anyone from the- from birth to death can enjoy the physical environment, but it speaks to products and services. And so it is how I engage with my customer, and it doesn't matter who my customer is, I'm not seeing the person with any limitation, I'm seeing a customer who is coming into my facility to enhance my business or to invest in my business. And so my business needs to have a service culture, that will not see the person with a disability as a hindrance or an obstruction to other people coming into your business place. You know, but it is helping society to craft or wrap its mind around seeing another human being. I know that it is- it is not only the society that will have to take this cultural shift but people deserve disabilities themselves, and I'm not fooling myself, because I know that because of how society has treated persons with disabilities, a vast majority have believed the lie and have believed that they are less than and they because of the situation within which they have found themselves, their mindsets to will have to be shifted there, there will have to be a cultural shift, even within the disability sector, to help them to understand where their responsibility lies in this whole matter of the Disabilities Act and how they will be able to stand up and take their own place in the society. What is their responsibility in that role, you know, so, so, it is a two way cultural transformation. It's a transformation for the individual with disability, their parents, their family, and it is a transformation for the society in itself in how it it sees people, how it deals with people, how it treats people and how it serves people.(Paige) 29:13
Well yeah, absolutely. And, and I completely agree, I think that unfortunately persons with disabilities have believed the lies that you know, the mainstream society have- have- have- have, you know, have kind of propaganda about them. So I think that that cultural shift needs to happen within the community as well.(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 29:31
Yes. (Paige) 29:31
And then at large in the wider Jamaica. Indeed, the the Act allows for a provision of a disability certificate Once registered within the JCPD. Can you expound on the process of registering when is ideal? How do you register and also the various campaigns that JCPD has embarked on to get people registered?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 29:57
Okay, so the disability certificate will kick in. As soon as the first set of recruitment in the JCPD takes place, and that is currently happening. And so when, when the new staff, the new executive director, the new legal person and all of those persons whenever they are, whenever they have been hired, which which should be in the next month or so within the next month or so, then that process will begin to kick in until then, the current process is that persons can download the registration form, the application form and the medical form from our website, www.jcpdja.com. And they can take the medical aspect of the form to the medical professional that deals with that particular type of disability. So you have different forms on the website. So if I am blind, I will choose the form that deals with blindness and visual impairment. If I am deaf, there is a form that deals with deafness or hard of hearing. If I have a physical disability, there's a functional assessment form that that person will need to pull down. If I have a psychiatric disability, mental illness, then I pull down, the one that will take me to the psychiatrist that deals with mental illness. If I have an intellectual disability, I will pull the one that will take me to the educational psychologist or the clinical psychologist to complete those forms. So those forms should be completed, signed, stamped, dated by the professional and or, and by the person with the disability, or, or the parent or caregiver on their behalf and then complete the application form which is just giving basic information about them as the individual basic bio data: name, your age, your date of birth, your address, contact number, which school- your educational status, your employment status, information like those. Once those forms are completed and then they are taken to an office of the Jamaica Council for Persons with Disabilities. We have a number of social workers that are either resident in a parish or they visit a parish. Because currently, the current staff is not sufficient to cover one per parish, but when all the staff is in place, the recruitment process will have at least one social worker per parish. And so in the meantime, persons can take them to the manager of the Ministry of Labor and Social Security parish offices. And when the social worker gets to that parish, they will collect them, take them into Kingston, and they are entered into the database. For the new process, persons who would have been registered will be able to get a Certificate of Registration. So the process then will be for those who would have been registered before, they would have to bring only an application that would be available on the website and and would be available across the parishes as well. They can take that form to make an application for their name to enter the confidential register, because the JCPD is mandated to have a confidential register to enter the particulars of a person with a disability. There is a process of about two weeks or so that individual will have to be registered. And after that registration process, because the JCPD will have to review the forms, review the applications upon entry into the registry and then persons will get that Certificate of Registration. This Certificate of Registration will have the photograph of the individual, their name, the disability and the expiration dates. So persons will have that form, keep it for five years, and at five years it becomes up for renewal becomes. If it is that a person acquires a new disability, where upon the process of renewal, then they would have to get a new eligibility form completed now that will tell their new disability stamped by the medical professional, responsible for that disability and then take it back so that the particulars in the database and the confidential register be adjusted to show that this person now has multiple disabilities. For persons who are just registering, they will bring that eligibility form along with the application for registration, same process. They take it to the medical professional for that disability group and complete the application take it into the JCPD. It is reviewed, if it is accepted, it's entered into the registry and they will get their certificate of registration. If it is not approved as a person with a disability, then the individual will be notified that they do not have a disability and therefore, they would not be able to get that Certificate of Registration nor their details entered into the confidential registry. If it is that they disagree, then they can appeal. The individual can appeal there will be an appeals process set up by the Minister have a team that including medical professionals, persons with disabilities and so on that will review and other professionals . They will review that application and if it is that the committee set up by the Minister determines that the person does indeed have a disability then the JCPD will have to accept and provide the Certificate of Registration. If it is that they oppose what the JCPD says that this person does not have a disability, then the individual name and particulars will not be entered and they would not get that Certificate of Registration.(Paige) 37:37
I had a follow up question the rights that are enshrined in this Act are they just for registered persons with disabilities or far reaching as in who can be considered disabled medically and/or by the definition of disability provided in the legislation?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 37:55
Well, the legislation covers all persons with disabilities. And so every person who has a disability can make an appeal or make a complaint based on what the legislation says. The one challenge that they will face is that services of the JCPD, they will not be able to access services of the JCPD without being registered. Because if it is that you show up to say you have a disability, there is no proof. So they would have to be proof and that is part of the reason the JCPD provides this verification, or you have to go through the verification process of the disability. So anybody can come and pretend that they're deaf or pretend that something else is wrong, because you know, not all disabilities are visible. However, there will have to be proof medical or a verification process, because for persons with intellectual disabilities, it's not really a medical, it's an assessment process. So, there has to be some verification means of the person's disability so there will be public awareness and started and continuing. There is a consultant communication consultant company that is on board that is that is facilitating the rolling out of the communication plan that will take all facets of the Disabilities Act into consideration, including registration. And so there will be you know, I wouldn't say maybe massive registration drives across the island, just to ensure and to sure up, you know, the registration process of persons with disabilities.(Paige) 40:00
No, thank you for answering that. So just to switch gears a bit, a number of countries have developed comprehensive policies and subsequent legislation for persons with disabilities. Guyana formulated a national policy on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 1997; Jamaica established a national policy for persons with disabilities in 2000; and Trinidad and Tobago launched its national policy in 2006; followed by the Cayman Islands in 2014. Some of these countries have now passed Disability Acts. In Guyana, the Persons with Disabilities Act came into law in 2010. In the Bahamas, it came into law in 2014 and is being implemented. And in the Cayman Islands, , the Disability Bill was approved at the end of 2016. How does Jamaica's Disability Act hold up with similar ones being passed by other Caribbean countries?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 41:01
Um, I think I believe the Caribbean countries have also signed and possibly ratified the same Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, that for facilities the frame of the the legislation. Because as I said before, that disability discrimination and stigma is similar right across the world. And so similarly the rights that the convention purports will be relevant to each country, and each country would pay attention to those areas that it deems are of greatest impact. And so I believe the Disabilities Act of Jamaica 2014 will hold up to any other national or international or regional Disabilities Act. Maybe not fully because it is the first in terms of international, in terms of our developed countries, because they would have been doing this longer and they would have maybe fully, you know, they would have enacted certain legislation following their own foundation Disability Acts. And so they would have been far ahead in their implementation process, but I fully believe that the areas captured in our Disabilities Act, you know, will definitely can stand up, you know, in terms of its impact and effectiveness that it will have on the lives of people with disabilities. Of course, we know that advocacy is always important because a law by itself will not change anything and so it is the implementation process and the authority that is given to the council and how it implements this piece of legislation that will see, you know, the real, what should I say, the real impact for want of a better word, our effect on the lives of persons with disabilities and the society in general. So, I may not know all that is in all the other disability legislations across the region but I am sure that Jamaica's can stand up, you know, to theirs, and it will stand up for our people. And not only that, the fact that there is a process of review, so it is not static. Disability is a concept that is very dynamic in and of itself. Disability developments happen very frequently. And so I'm sure that as the council reviews, what is happening, the good practices across the world, and it has its review process, not later than, you know, three years after its passage, which is three years after February 14 2022, then I'm sure that there'll be areas as the implementation takes place, there'll be areas for improvement, because no legislation is perfect. So as we go along, you know, there will be reviews, to make changes to make adjustments, to ensure that it will impact the lives of persons with disabilities and our society in the best way possible.(Paige) 44:40
Thank you for that. And lastly, what is next for the JCPD in terms of the implementation of this Act?(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 44:50
Well, right now, on its agenda, it's the completion of the recruitment of its staff. You know, just to ensure that all the varying departments within it are up and functioning so that persons with disabilities can, you know, begin to make their complaints and begin to get their Certificate of Registration and all the other things that are there. So on its mind right now is the recruitment process, and to ensure that everything is in place. And also, as part of that process to educate the society to ensure that every nook and cranny, everywhere, everywhere across this island; they are aware of the disabilities act, they're aware of their rights, they are aware of their responsibilities, society is aware of what it needs to put in place to ensure the rights of persons with disabilities are upheld. And so it's quite a bit of a whole lot of work, to set the foundation and to ensure that, you know, we are moving off on a good footing to ensure that the disability sector partners that are out there that there is some mechanism in place to allow us to speak with one voice. Because the JC PD based on the ark has a responsibility to always consult with its partners to ensure that what it is implementing it is what is good and right and fitting their voices are at the table. Their voices are heard. Even the disabilities even the Board of Management for the Jamaica cones are for persons with disabilities. Regardless of the skill sets that are required, there are a number of persons with disabilities that must be represented on that board. So regardless of who else is recruited on that board, persons with disabilities, the Act outlines blind and visual impairment, deaf and hard of hearing physical disabilities, intellectual disabilities, they must be represented on the board. And so we look forward to the work that is ahead, quite a bit of work that is ahead. And we know that we have the buy in of our society, because many already, you know, have been throwing their hat in the ring to show their support, and to do what it is that they can do to ensure that persons with disabilities, their rights are upheld, and that we move forward as a society to a better place.(Paige) 47:34
Thank you, Dr. Hendrix. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking your time to have this conversation with me and just for the advocacy that you've been doing. I appreciate it. Thank you.(Dr. Christine Hendricks) 47:44
You're most welcome. Thank you too, for having me.(Paige) 47:48
This has been another episode of the CheckMate political podcast by Tenement Yaad Media. Don't forget to check us out on social media and on our website at www.tenementyaadmedia.com. And don't forget to share the podcast with a friend.Outro: (Gabby) 48:07
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